FOOD FOR THOUGHT Beyond disappointing.....

[bcmike]

Hi Ward,

I've been around since the Asterisk Management Portal days. We then found Asterisk@home, moved to Trixbox, and finally have been happy users of PBIAF for a lot of years.

It looks like PBIAF is now entering its Trixbox phase. Oh well it was a good run...

Unfortunately you're basically doing away with every reason we moved to PBIAF, here's the list:

1. Based on open source products with a healthy and vibrant community. You can say what you want about the 3CX community it doesn't come close to Asterisk/FreePBX/PBIAF. With such a wide base of support it wasn't hard to find someone having the same problem you were. I don't even know what runs 3CX, or what its evolution has been, and frankly a native Windows telecom product seems suspect.
2. The Centos/RHEL environment. It's what we have become accustom too and has preformed like a rock for many years. Again Debian may be a great platform but if its not broke why are we fixing it? Are we simply accommodating 3CX? Whats the track record with 3CX in Linux? As long as Asterisk? Probably not..
3. Compile from source scripts and version continuity. I always loved all the hardwork you guys put into the install and upgrade scripts that allowed us to compile from source. We could keep all the versioning straight and still add run time options, etc. It made for a super stable asterisk environment and kept us safe from RPM hell. I guess those days are gone and we will mourn them.
4. Flexibility. We could always add our own scripts, get ideas from other people, make small improvements and in short do really creative things with PBIAF. Entering the 3CX walled garden essentially ends that. Giving 3CX credit they have a lot of great shiny polished stuff that's exciting, but at the end of the day its their stuff, branded with their logos, with them adding value as opposed to us.
5. Lean mean PBX machine. The differentiator between incredible PBX and PBIAF was that it was a core engine without the bells and whistles, which made it super stable and an awesome platform. Again 3CX is not that. Its all things to all people and in my opinion that's not PBIAF
6. Sacalability. Can you scale 3CX to a 1000 concurrent calls? I'm not sure. Can you set up a geo redundant 3CX cluster? I don't know. If it is possible do I need to license windows to run it all in those modes?

So you see Ward from my point of view PBIAF is officially dead. Who killed it is debatable, I'm sure a lot of blame will be laid at Sangomas feet but honestly I'm not so sure everyone couldn't have found a way to play nice. At any rate the reasons are above my pay grade but the end result is that PBIAF as we know it is gone.

I do have one final request, and its humbly on bended knee; can you maintain the old PBIAF repositories or make them downloadable for offline use. PBIAF even in its older incarnations is still one of the strongest, most reliable offerings ever made available to the world of telecom and it'd be a shame if we couldn't still use it.

Your biggest fan,

Mike

 

[stanjohn]

Don't forget my FXO PCI cards not working, reading doc don't see support.

 

[wardmundy]

@bcmike: I think there's some misunderstanding. First, the PIAF 3 repositories will be maintained on SourceForge as they always have been. Second, Incredible PBX (especially the Lean version) gives you exactly the feature set you're looking for. And it's not going anywhere either. Third, PIAF 3 and Incredible PBX had become redundant so we've opted to expand the options by adding a commercial alternative. While it may not be for you, there are others that want the stability of a commercial company with commercial support standing behind their phone system. 3CX has been around a very long time, and most of the Debian code was ported over from their Windows platform thanks to the latest Linux kernel. So this wasn't a rewrite from scratch. Look at today's article if you want more information on the 3CX pedigree and customer base. We also wanted to offer our gurus a platform where they could actually make some money for a change.

 

[wardmundy]

@stanjohn: See my comment #2 above.

 

[bcmike]

@bcmike: I think there's some misunderstanding. First, the PIAF 3 repositories will be maintained on SourceForge as they always have been. Second, Incredible PBX (including the Lean version) gives you exactly the feature set you're looking for. And it's not going anywhere either. Third, PIAF 3 and Incredible PBX had become redundant so we've opted to expand the options by adding a commercial alternative. While it may not be for you, there are others that want the stability of a commercial company with commercial support standing behind their phone system. 3CX has been around a very long time, and most of the Debian code was ported over from their Windows platform thanks to the latest Linux kernel. So this wasn't a rewrite from scratch. Look at today's article if you want more information on the 3CX pedigree and customer base. We also wanted to offer our gurus a platform where they could actually make some money for a change.

Thanks for the clarification Ward. We'll definitely check out incredible PBX lean. As long as we can still install the old versions of PBIAF, we'll be happy for quite some time to come.

Thanks again for your dedication.

 

[wardmundy]

Keep in mind that PIAF3 code hasn't been touched in over 18 months. Make sure you have good image backups of your servers. Installing new systems from the old ISO can be problematic at this juncture because of operating system and FreePBX "improvements." Don't wait for a disaster to try things out.

 

[briankelly63]

I think SOLVED should be added to the title of this thread, it was misinformed.

 

[Nicky]

Correction.. 2048 sim calls.. And we are working round the clock to add more stuff like Fax, webmeeting (with personal mcu inside).. All your communications can be actually yours.. on a VPS for like 4bucks a month ok if you are a small company you take the 5.99. Actually we love the way 3CX is working on Debian..this is a very clean OS. We have done a lot of work and still working. Plus the hosting opportunities are absolutely crazy!! We are looking forward for updates... I'm really excited about this move..

 

[John Rodgers]

I could not agree here more. I have also been a long time user of PBXiaF and have stayed out of the drama and fued that Ward has taken up with both FreePBX and Digium and even at one point with CentOS and RedHat. Seems anytime someone else wants to make money they are attacked here unless it is Ward that wants to make money and I am at the end of my rope with all of this.

The funniest thing here is PBXiaF was started because Trixbox CE was morphing into Trixbox Pro which was a bait and switch of full open source to full commercial. This is the exact same thing Ward is now doing. Going from a pure Open Source to Pure Commercial and he expects us to all believe all is ok. This speak volumes of your character and you have now sold out just like everyone else you cry foul to. Its also amusing that since Tom and Joe have left the project how PBXiaF has just gone stagnant so I guess we know who the real driving factor behind this was.

Guess its time I move to FreePBX Distro because at least they have made clear they have the commercial PBXact platform and the Free FreePBX Distro platform and PBXact appears built on FreePBX but fully commercialized which would mean for PBXact to keep moving forward FreePBX has to keep moving forward. I did download the latest Alpha version with FreePBX 14 and wow its amazing is all I can say.

The most disappointing thing about 3CX move by Ward is that 3CX for years has bashed Asterisk with add words and facebook ads and even Linux. Heck their own website here still bashes Linux and Proprietary PBXs but that is exactly what they are by the definition of proprietary.

 

[mbellot]

The funniest thing here is PBXiaF was started because Trixbox CE was morphing into Trixbox Pro which was a bait and switch of full open source to full commercial. This is the exact same thing Ward is now doing. Going from a pure Open Source to Pure Commercial and he expects us to all believe all is ok. This speak volumes of your character and you have now sold out just like everyone else you cry foul to. Its also amusing that since Tom and Joe have left the project how PBXiaF has just gone stagnant so I guess we know who the real driving factor behind this was.

If Ward were a "sell out" I doubt there would be options like XiVO being pursued (and even pushed). This is about options in my mind... So far I'm sticking with PIAF3, it's a bit old but does everything I need. I'm also trying to carve out time to look at XiVO, but a wife, three kids and a full time job makes "free" time scarce.

I played with 3CX on Windows a long time ago. It wasn't bad, but they turned me off with their creeping feature drop. The newest release as PIAF5 looks interesting except for the one SIP trunk limitation. My fear is that they will pull the same crap and start removing features with each new "upgrade".

 

[wardmundy]

@John Rodgers: Not to confuse you with the facts, but we now have almost a dozen separate products, all but one of which is open source, GPL code. As was stated in the PIAF 5 article, which it sounds like you haven't read, the idea behind PIAF 5 was to provide a commercial alternative for those that wanted the things that a commercial offering provides. It also offers a financial opportunity for some of our gurus to generate some income so that they can continue to support open source projects such as ours. Still searching for your open source contribution.

So, no, there's no bait and switch. And, no, we're not getting out of the open source business. And kindly keep your personal attacks to yourself or, better yet, go elsewhere. Sounds like you'll fit right in.

 

[John Rodgers]

Ward

You can brush me off all you want but you have been the one to attack everyone who ever made money on Open Source including Digium and Sangoma amongst others but now that you do it and get your pockets lined with hundreds of thousands of dollars from 3CX to buy the rights to the pbxinaflash.com websites and only offer 3CX on that website you want to change your tune and hide these facts from all of us.

Yes I said that right, word from 5 different vendors like phone manufactures and others have all been talking with each other and all have been told by numerous sources that you have sold out for 200K. So how about you be transparent on what your financial gains are with 3CX so users know the whole truth and why you are pushing us your trusted users onto a platform that is proprietary by your own words. If I sound upset I am because its a double standard.

As far as selling out its clear on your own website pbxinaflash that its all 3CX only and no mentions of any other open source PBX. Home page Download link is only 3CX when it use to have downloads for all your products. The Support and Documentation menu is all 3CX only. Its obvious they have taken over your pbxinaflash.com website here.

Something is not adding up so please enlighten us with the details of your sale or "Sponsorship" by 3CX with full disclosure to us so we can better understand this major shift from you. Its fine if you decided it was time to cash in but its not fine to hide this and play games with us users who's businesses are built on your platform and trust.

Lastly to 3CX I see how quickly you went and edited all your slanderous comments about Linux already from your blog. Good thing its all archived on google and waybackmachine you can not hide from your attacking of Linux the very foundation that us users here have used and embraced for years.

 

[briankelly63]

Please go away Mr. Rodgers you are not welcome here.

 

[John Rodgers]

Please go away Mr. Rodgers you are not welcome here.

I have not said anythign directly at you but its fine if you want to attack me but I am asking the real questions. As a user yourself do you not feel you should know if Ward has sold out and hiding it from others. Look at the main pbxinaflash.com website. No mention of any open source products anymore from where it was 3 days ago.

 

[Nicky]

Roger - You speak with passion and I appreciate that - because you have a love for computing. Otherwise you would not speak like this.

But lets now look at Microsoft for example - Do we agree Microsoft is a software giant?

I mean Microsoft now TURNED TO LINUX!!!! with ASP NET core. All their webinars , events and conferences are talking actually about linux.

Why are you so surprised that 3CX also turned and looked at the massive potential there is in linux world? This should not be a surprise.
We embrace this strategic move..

Come on... I will be happy as a person that loves IT and Telecommunications if a company that I like on Windows starts to offer their services on Linux.

 

[John Rodgers]

Roger - You speak with passion and I appreciate that - because you have a love for computing. Otherwise you would not speak like this.

But lets now look at Microsoft for example - Do we agree Microsoft is a software giant?

I mean Microsoft now TURNED TO LINUX!!!! with ASP NET core. All their webinars , events and conferences are talking actually about linux.

Why are you so surprised that 3CX also turned and looked at the massive potential there is in linux world? This should not be a surprise.
We embrace this strategic move..

Come on... I will be happy as a person that loves IT and Telecommunications if a company that I like on Windows starts to offer their services on Linux.

My issue is that you attacked and attacked Linux and had facebook ads and google ads attacking linux and open source and now you are asking us to embrace and trust 3CX. Only after you were called out on your Linux whitepaper did you do something about it and removed the content. And now instead of saying we were wrong and we saw the light you are defending yourself and your actions and talking about Microsoft.

 

[wardmundy]

 

[wardmundy]

I have not said anythign (sic) directly at you but its fine if you want to attack me but I am asking the real questions. As a user yourself do you not feel you should know if Ward has sold out and hiding it from others. Look at the main pbxinaflash.com website. No mention of any open source products anymore from where it was 3 days ago.

Nobody has sold anybody out, Mr. Rodgers. I can't recall your ever visiting this forum before much less contributing. So troll elsewhere! And it was you , sir, that was launching the personal attacks. So either act respectfully or we've all read your last post. Maybe a picture will help clarify where things stand since you seem to have considerable difficulty reading.

 

[wardmundy]

Something is not adding up so please enlighten us with the details of your sale or "Sponsorship" by 3CX with full disclosure to us so we can better understand this major shift from you. Its (sic) fine if you decided it was time to cash in but its (sic) not fine to hide this and play games with us users who's (sic) businesses are built on your platform and trust.

First, I don't for a minute think that you have any businesses using any of our software. Nor is anyone playing games as you put it. You've never so much as visited this forum before. So I was not inclined to respond to your trolling. Nobody owes you an explanation for anything. However, for the benefit of our actual user community, I want to clarify the financial and other considerations that went into the PIAF5 decision. Both my company and 3CX are privately held. We obviously have a business relationship. For openers, 3CX advertises on Nerd Vittles and does much, much more that frankly is none of your concern.

The Nerd Vittles PIAF5 article explains the thinking that went into the decision to move PBX in a Flash in a different direction so I'm not going to repeat it here other than to note that PIAF3 was very old code with nobody left to maintain and enhance it. It's functionality had become redundant with current releases of Incredible PBX. Stated another way, there is no functionality in PIAF3 of which I am aware that cannot be replicated more safely using one of the current open source GPL versions of Incredible PBX. So it made little sense to continue to maintain two different source trees and repositories. On top of all that, the PIAF3 installer was closed source. All of the Incredible PBX installers are open source. That was my personal design preference, and I was unwilling to invest any more of my time in a closed source platform. But we did want to provide as many options for our user community as possible. The PIAF5 freeware product does that. It is no different in licensing than the ISO products of Digium, Sangoma, and many other companies. What is different is there's an incredibly large commercial company standing behind it with an opportunity for many of our gurus to make some money in the telecom business if they so choose. In that way, they can feed their families and still contribute their expertise to the open source community, something you haven't done. PIAF5 is now a commercial alternative for our user community with a free version. It isn't for everyone, nor would we expect it to be. That's why we maintain almost a dozen additional open source (free) products under the Incredible PBX umbrella.

As for the financial arrangement with 3CX, suffice it to say it takes money (lots of it) to maintain a high-traffic forum as well as a technology blog particularly when you more than double the cost and workload to provide redundancy. It also takes money (lots of it) to produce and maintain nearly a dozen open source projects. Finally, it takes money (lots of it) to test and evaluate new VoIP and mobile technologies for Nerd Vittles. Our financial arrangement with 3CX provides some of that funding. Our users and vendor referrals also provide significant income for which we are most appreciative. Without it, there would be no forum, no blog, and none of our open source projects. If anyone thinks this is financially lucrative, by all means start writing code and articles and let us know how that goes. In the meantime, Mr. Rodgers, we're still waiting to see your first contribution of any type to any VoIP project.

Finally, nothing that was previously on the pbxinaflash.com site has been removed that wasn't available on one or more alternate sites already. If anyone has trouble finding anything, just ask. It made sense to convert the pbxinaflash domain content to better support the PIAF5 freeware product. If Mr. Rodgers had ever visited the PBX in a Flash web site, he would know that it's content hasn't changed in almost 3 years so its content was stale to put it charitably. Previous releases of PBX in a Flash still are maintained on SourceForge, Nerd Vittles, and the Incredible PBX sites in compliance with the terms of the GPL.

In conclusion, Mr. Rodgers, as I said previously, until you have something constructive to add, take your trolling elsewhere.

 

[Nicky]

Yes Rogers.. We said things about linux and linux pbx's. But that was years ago.

I brought up the example of Microsoft because as you know, they also said so much worse stuff about linux than we could ever say - And this giant with total assets amounting to around 200 BILLION, this year had to fall to the mercy of the linux operating system.. I mean what better example can I raise?

Of course I'll mention Microsoft.. Who else can I mention? You will see now what will happen.
ASPNET core is coming on Noobs. Raspberry PI's will have .net applications running on them. Developers will generate a TSUNAMI of applications..
Samsung - is working on this and contributing. Another MEGA Giant.

The debate is finished. Do not keep on trolling at it. If you keep on arguing like this, you will not be taken seriously. I'm giving you examples from the news..