ALERT TDM/Copper UNE Analog Based Voice Goes Bye-Bye 8/2/22

[Samot]

Maybe some companies individually in some areas of operation will meet the deadline, but I'm still waiting for the FCC to meet any specified initial deadline, without exemptions or extensions. Even going back to the days of CB radios, they missed deadline dates.

The FCC sets the deadline, it is up to those regulated by the FCC to follow through. Will everyone hit this deadline? Not sure. Will there be some that can't hit the deadline but only need another 90 days? Possible. However, the biggest take away from this is that the TDM is now considered a hinderance. The TDM networks are now the minority, there is no investment in furthering TDM technology, nor can it compete with the newer technology.

The real problem here is that TDS has done nothing to invest back into their network in this area. That is 100% a TDS issue and the things like this should force their hand. I got 4 local incumbents in New Mexico, each with their own CO and coverage. No other carriers are in these COs. I have a hotel that we took things over on, we can't port their numbers, so we put in an FXO <> SIP gateway to handle that. I got to look at their bill and it was upwards of $70 per POTS line and almost another $600-$800 in DSL circuits to get speeds to adequately provide access to guests. DSL circuits aren't that great either, none of them get to 3M but the reason they are using DSL vs T1's is because the carrier doesn't do T1s.

That is a natural monopoly because no one else wants to invest in expanding there. So not only can they charge whatever the hell they want, they don't have to invest back into themselves too much because what competition is going to make them? It's not like they have Comcast in those areas, it is generally a local cable company that probably doesn't do Internet or has just as poor offerings.

@kenn10 Don't you have cable in this area with no high-speed telecom? Don't they do Internet or is it POC (plain ole cable)?

 

[kenn10]

@kenn10 Don't you have cable in this area with no high-speed telecom? Don't they do Internet or is it POC (plain ole cable)?

The cable network is basically just local channels from Richmond. No cable modems. They have about 250 subscribers in a very small footprint around the town limits. I believe TDS only has one or two other areas they serve in Virginia in the Shenandoah Valley. All their improvement is in the states that they dominate or are being sued to improve (like West Virginia.) I can't stand to even visit my home town because the only way I can even get cell service or data is to sit at a table at McDonalds and use their wifi that is pumped in via satellite. You can park under the one cell tower but data is useless because everyone has a smart phone but one tower can't handle the volume of traffic.

We're not much better up here in the western NC mountains. Frontier is barely hanging on but is really needed because so many parts of this area have no cell service. Fortunately, we have two forward thinking cable companies and I have fiber to my home.

 

[ostridge]

they could literally free up all their facilities housing the traditional telco switches.

Well thats pretty much sums up - the years we have had exchanges (here) stuffed with obsolete mainly strowager racks; and a few cabinets at one end housing the more modern exchange stuff. BT seemed to avoid clearing the redundant racks as empty space could be rented by rival telcos.

 

[phonebuff]

That's the reason we kept our main office number on POTS. When our power has gone out, we can still connect an analog phone and it rings. In the end, that's what I need our phones to do - ring. Something to be said for that. Yes, I know we can call forward to cell lines and such....
Better look at our POTS bill!!!!!!

That's a total fallacy for many. POTS these days is mostly from a Fiber SLIC in your neighbor hood, and the SLIC often has very limited capability of operating without commercial power -

 

[kenn10]

This whole order from the FCC is about Unbundled Service to competitors and has nothing to do with native POTS lines from the incumbent LEC. It is saying that the iLEC does not have to provide a copper pair to a competitor. UNE POTS is not the same as POTS from the incumbent.

People who have not worked in the field for a phone company are seemingly unfamiliar with what a UNE is. Usually, the work order would be called a UNE-P for unbundled POTS service.

UNE = Unbundled Network Element - As in allowing a competitor to provide service over your copper pair at a discounted rate and thus UNE POTS.

The sky is not falling. The world is not ending. POTS service will live on…just not for iLEC competitors over the iLEC’s cable pairs.

 

[Samot]

The sky is not falling. The world is not ending. POTS service will live on…just not to iLEC competitors over the iLEC’s cable pairs.

Correct. Based on the findings in that FCC order from 3 years ago, out of the 339M voice subscriptions not on competitive ILECs, 1.8M where UNE Analog lines in 2017. I'm sure that has decreased as well.

I am curious though, how many of those 1.8M are non-voice lines such as fax or other analog endpoints?

 

[kenn10]

The UNE's have been getting pushed away for years. The iLEC's converted SLC's to pure fiber to keep UNE-P off their equipment. I suspect this ruling has minimal impact by now. The UNE-P service was a big expense for the iLEC's since someone in the CO had to wire the CLEC's service to a terminal and a field tech had to be dispatched to move the subscriber's pair to a different location in the cross box to cut the service over. Then noisy lines, loss of service, etc., would require more field service from the iLEC.

I think the ruling is fair but it is not going to have a major impact on anyone's POTS service from their iLEC (which is the vast majority of those 339M voice subscriptions.)

Again, this whole FCC ruling is blown out of proportion.

 

[Samot]

I think the ruling is fair but it is not going to have a major impact on anyone's POTS service from their iLEC (which is the vast majority of those 339M voice subscriptions.)

OK now who is being misleading? In 2017 there where 454M overall subscriptions Wireless, VoIP, IP/Fiber alone made up 391M of that. Incumbents, wireline resellers and others using UNE totaled 62M. Based on the trends for the past decade or so, that 62M is much lower in 2022. So if ILECs only had 12% of subscriptions in 2017, they probably are hovering at 10%, give or take. Out of that 62M from 2017, how many do you think where UNE Analog?

There are five non-competitive incumbents in New Mexico. There are 2M people in the state and of those 2M people, all 5 incumbents, combined, service less than 20K of the population in the state (spread out). There are a dozen states that have less population of New Mexico but plenty of space, including WV. I'm sure the trend is the same, plenty of options in large population dense area of the states and one option in the rural parts that have 1-2% of the over all population spread out. But just like for you, there are non-incumbent options. You have cable, you don't have to rely on the incumbent.

At the end of the day, I'd say only about 10% of voice subscriptions will be caught in this but the majority of that 10% will be in competitive carrier markets.

Incumbents and TDM based technology have not been the dominate force of telecom in the US for a very, very long time.

 

[kenn10]

Enjoy how forward you are in New Mexico with the non-inbumbents. The rest of us are pretty deep into them. Obviously, those in densely populated areas get more choice. In any case, not ALL POTS is going away on 8/2/22, which was my point.

 

[Samot]

Enjoy how forward you are in New Mexico with the non-inbumbents. The rest of us are pretty deep into them. Obviously, those in densely populated areas get more choice. In any case, not ALL POTS is going away on 8/22/22, which was my point.

Fair. My point is, dont be unaware of what is going on. Verizon is doing this in April, not August. It is those little things people need to watch for.

I have just watched, over the last couple of years, as people paid no attention to things happening that impact what they do. Even worse, think that it isnt going to happen because "it has always been this way". Then I watch them make a mad scramble to catch up while their customers/users bitch things dont work.

Sangoma is a good example. They ignored changes to Asterisk and now v19 breaks callerid stuff because they never updated the use of deprecated module.

Just like I have watched people update to v18 on Asterisk from older versions, not realize chan_sip no longer compiles and their enter system tank because they are still 100% chan_sip.

Trying to save some people headaches.

 

[kenn10]

It is good to try and save other people headaches. We just need clarity of the information up front. Without this discord between you and me, the subject was murky at best and misleading at worst. And, face it, the FCC rarely follows through on hard dates. They're a political body directed by politicians who are lobbied (and likely paid) by the big companies. If the numbers you're quoting are from the FCC, I suspect they are about as accurate as their cellular coverage maps.

In this case, the iLECs brought up all of this to save money and shut out competition. The CLEC's have had three years to react. I don't think there is need to panic. I personally know of no business or residential user who has a UNE-P. I had one at one time and it was horrible. You could hear the digital "singing" on the line because of all the repeaters over copper. Also, you could only get a dial-up connect of 14,400 bps vs. 56Kbps on the fiber SLC. Nowadays, most business CLEC usage is via PRI service or various internet pipes; none of which is disallowed under this ruling. Small businesses usually go with the cable service for voice/data service where 5 years ago, they might have entertained a CLEC line.

At any rate, I believe this discussion has reached a logical endpoint.

 

[Samot]

It’s The End of An Era. The End of POTS Services. Is Your Business Prepared?

The end of an era. Plain old telephony service (POTS), the legacy analog copper phone line, is being phased out.

www.clearlyip.com

I guess they are also wrong? This also claims telecoms are dumping POTS and even copper. Now I posted that originally and was told I was wrong. This isn't happening. I was being misleading because it's not all POTS and all copper and all telecoms.

Oh yeah, ATT has confirmed that by 2025 they will be free of copper and fully Fiber/Wireless. Verizon and a few others are in the process of turning down all copper-based services where they have fiber. My counterparts at CLECs within Verizon territory have also confirmed they have gotten turndown notices not only for POTS but also all their PRIs and T1s.

 

[KNERD]

It’s The End of An Era. The End of POTS Services. Is Your Business Prepared?

The end of an era. Plain old telephony service (POTS), the legacy analog copper phone line, is being phased out.

www.clearlyip.com

I guess they are also wrong? This also claims telecoms are dumping POTS and even copper. Now I posted that originally and was told I was wrong. This isn't happening. I was being misleading because it's not all POTS and all copper and all telecoms.

Oh yeah, ATT has confirmed that by 2025 they will be free of copper and fully Fiber/Wireless. Verizon and a few others are in the process of turning down all copper-based services where they have fiber. My counterparts at CLECs within Verizon territory have also confirmed they have gotten turndown notices not only for POTS but also all their PRIs and T1s.

That's bit of a tight schedule. I know someone who lives a in very rural area and no internet lines available where they reside. Only means is through satellite, or cell phone. I have my doubts they will have fiber running to every rural household in three years.

I also know someone who has a home in a residential neighborhood which is now about 10 years in age (not rural), AT&T internet, nor even telephone is still not available there. Though I have seen work being done in the area in the past 3 years by AT&T, his home, nor a nearby business location cannot get AT&T internet. I ran into an AT&T sales rep at a stand in a Walmart about 2.5 years ago. I gave them the address of my friend's business location, He did say it is not available at the moment, but should be available within six months. That six months have turned into over 2 years now.

 

[Samot]

@KNERD It will all depends on the carriers. ATT has stated they arent replacing copper with Fiber in all areas. Certain areas will use a 5G wireless solution they developed.

Currently, Verizon has said they will keep some copper live in areas where they dont have fiber yet. Others are making the same plans.

The truth of the matter is, ATT, Verizon, et al haven't installed anything over copper in years. It may be copper on the "last mile" (junction box to location) but that is it. Most of this is replacing 10yo+ service no one has upgraded.

 

[kenn10]

Again, the FCC ruling is about unbundled network elements, specifically allowing a competitor to use the incumbent's wire to run service to a subscriber. The other issue of AT&T and Verizon moving people off copper remains that (a) they must still provide an analog service output to the customer to simulate generic POTS or (b) the customer will be provided with information on another provider, such as a cable company, that can provide the POTS like service. For non-copper POTS service, a provider must offer a battery backup unit (not for free) to the customer to keep the service active during power outages. There have been confusing FCC rulings and orders that interfere with each other and the big telcos are using all that to their advantage.

The incumbents cannot just remove a customer from service.

You guys keep raising panic over nothing. ClearlyIP even had an article in their blog also raising the same concerns. I understand the desire to lure more customers onto IP services but I feel this is like the Y2K panic causing people to unnecessarily replace phone systems rather than install a patch to fix the date issue. The VOIP providers are having a sales heyday and capitalizing on FUD.

For the most part, VOIP services are superior to POTS over copper. We all know that. AT&T and Verizon, among others, have permission to retire the copper in an orderly fashion; providing replacement technology. Whether that replacement is over fiber or fixed wireless or LTE or 5G, the customer still gets service. Verizon and AT&T have both said that they will keep copper in places where alternatives are not available to the customer (if you really believe that.)

Yes, PBX's on POTS lines will need to either switch to VOIP or deal with some new type of POTS-like service as the changes occur but NOT ALL POTS SERVICE IS GOING AWAY.

 

[KNERD]

I am sure this will fix it for those still with copper lines for a while to come then

 

[dicko]

One upmanship, I was an 'early adopter of isdn BRI (circa 1995)'

144kbs on a single copper pair , albeit two spids

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(bit of a cheat though I had a PRI at 'work' and the 'circuit' was zero cost (to me) Centrex )