Magic Button

[wardmundy]

Ethan,
I raised the initial concern so let me be the first to apologize if it was offensive. Those of us who develop software often get "too close" to our projects to be objective, and I'm as guilty of this as anyone. For the model you have described, i.e. the 40-person office, you're absolutely right. The rent model makes perfect sense. And it would be a tremendous addition.

For the five-person office or the two-person office, they also like bells and whistles, and that was the concern with the rental approach that I was raising. Perhaps there's another licensing model that will be a better fit for these folks.

Funny thing is that I'm wrestling with the same issues with a new fault-tolerant Asterisk setup with heartbeat. Server #1 fails and Server #2 automatically takes over. Once Server #1 is repaired, just run a little script and everything is back to being fault tolerant. Should I give it away? Should it be provided to PBX in a Flash development partners only for use with their customers? Should it work on "other" Asterisk implementations? These are tough questions... particularly when you've grown accustomed to eating.

Bottom Line: We're all working through the difficult pricing and licensing model that's at the heart of the Asterisk community. Don't be offended by questions and confusion. It's part of the territory.

 

[mtennant]

I'll let the open source vs. paid model discussion work itself out, but I did want to make one comment on the magic button.

Voice commands are very gee-whiz. Very futuristic. The future is here, but I'm not sure we are ready for it.

I've seen the magic button in action. I was impressed. I also think most folks would be. Great sales tool to show you have lots of tricks up your sleeve.

Reality? I don't think many average users will use it. Why? Here's my experience. I have a cellphone with voice recognition. I can push a button and say the name of my wife or daughter. Bingo. I'm connected.

I can also push and hold one button, say nothing and do the same thing. What do I do regularly? Push the button.

It always works. The voice recognition is hit or miss, depending on what is happening in the background.

Anyone else have an opinion on this?

 

[TheShniz]

I'll ignore the whole open source vs paid licensing, since that's a decision you have to make (and you can guess which I'd choose). I'm not trying to debate the attractiveness of a shared licensing price model, but I must say that it is not for everyone.

Forget about the cost factor for a second; there is a very real mindset that it is always better to pay a large lump sum up front, than to have a significantly smaller overhead for ever & ever... no matter what the accountants say is the breakeven, there are a good many that will never give this a second thought or time of day.

Now, as far as the 'feature' and the cost of said feature... what you're saying is not true. You don't have to be a Fortune 500 company, nor do you have to spend tens of thousands of dollars for ASR (Automatic Speech Recognition). The fact is that you can get a very low cost and effective ASR system (Telekol) or one with all the bells and whistles (Active Voice) on any Avaya, Nortel, etc. and you'd be suprised as to the affordability.

Now, along the lines as mtennant... there are some that won't use ASR because it lacks 100% accuracy, and while this is true to some extent; it has come a long way. I would argue that the problem is not usually background noise (although screaming kids can definately hurt), but most often difficult accents (that good 'ol country twang, etc). I've not seen the Ethan's magicbutton to compare, but traditionally you would have multiple spellings of various names or destinations (spelled phonetically that is). This neccessitates the ability to use or atleast fall back to DTMF menu'ing. Last I knew, this is one of the big things Ethan was currently working on.

In contrast, most small businesses (those 40 extensions or less) tend to not get ASR systems because they think "yeah, that's a really cool feature... but is it really worth $whatever to me?" As it is right now: ASR is a nice feature and will help sell a system; most won't pay a dime for such a thing, but would use it if given (something for nothing). I would dare say that ASR has to become more ubiquitous for mass acceptance, and that's simply going to take time.

Just look at the introduction of Unified Messaging and how long that took (which Asterisk still doesn't have btw)... now look at video conferencing and how long it's still taking. Features like M$'s and Ethan's magic button and Grandstream's GXV 3000 will help bump the process along, but we're not there yet... it takes time.

P.S.
I won't ever mention Cisco as a real PBX manufacturer, too many horror stories of IT guys buying a brand name for a field they know nothing about (telephony)

Was not my goal to be offensive, hurtful, or otherwise... and I'm sorry if I too contributed to these feelings.

 

[phoneguy]

, Perhaps there's another licensing model that will be a better fit for these folks.

We are always open for new ideas so if you have some other ideas for a licensing model please feel free to share these ideas. The bottom line is that this application is a stand alone application just as iSymphony, HUD Lite, Sangoma’s Wan Pipe Drivers or Lumenvox are and none of those applications are released as GPL yet people still use and embrace them. The magic button uses all of our own custom code, dial plans, AGI scripts all interfacing with the Asterisk Manager. This product was originally conceived and designed for our own customer base and will be included for free in every PBXact system we sell. The thought of selling it as a stand alone application is only being offered because we feel it would be a great application for others to use but if we are incorrect with this train of thought we will be happy to keep it to ourselves as a real advantage when our resellers are selling our PBXact system against all the legacy and non legacy systems out there.

Please remember that we are a for profit business with real shareholders that have have real money invested into this and this is just our way of trying to give something back to this great community.

 

[cosmicwombat]

Uhem... Lets get back to my posting....

Guys, this conversation has moved away from what I was hoping to talk about.

40+ Open Telephony Training Seminar participants walked out with a LumenVox starter Kit and access to the Magic Button application.

I have it functioning as intended. It was an involved process.

I wish to share my tribulations and hear from others about their experience.

So, does anyone else have this running?

 

[ErikU]

One more thought from me... I agree that in a large deployment a monthly pricing model may work, but I am also sure that in a small deployment (less than 25 extensions) it wont. Like I said, I don't mind paying one for a license, but the thought of an on going monthly fee really bothers me for a small company.

How about a single fee license that is fairly limited (a few channels would be enough for a SOHO) and the monthly model for the larger deployments? Just an idea.

 

[mtennant]

Robert, I think you might want to start a new thread outlining the steps you took to get it going. I have one of the licenses you mentioned, and I have no idea where to start, even though I am not so sure of the utility it would provide to my small installation.

 

[phoneguy]

Erik

What do you feel would be fair for a 1 time fee for a installation of 10 extensions or so. Lumenvox charges $250.00 for a 500 grammar file edition and $500.00 for a 10,000 grammar file edition. Those are our hard cost for buying these license.

We would need to find a price that works for all. The issue with a 10 user extension having a speech req IVR, Magic Button and Company Directory would require 3-5 ports to be safe. This would be a cost of $750.00 to $1250.00 based on the 500 grammar edition and $1500 to $2500 for the 10,000 edition.

What would it be worth to have unlimited ports for 10 extensions with an upfront 1 time fee?

 

[mat.phillips]

This is a most interesting thread, I have not tried the application myself (although I have heared it demo'd on the Voip users conference) so I'm reading from a distance as it were.

Ethan's post above me clearly shows that if 3 ports would cost 750 from lumenvox, then unlimited ports from him simply must cost more than that. There's no other logical answer.

I doubt a home user wanting a few channels could justify spending the 750 let alone more, considering that if the monthly fee was $5, it would take 12 and a half years to reach that 750 mark.

I'm with Ethan on this one, I think the service and pricepoint being offered is awsome. It's definatly something that our company may look into using in the future.

It's not like this is a simple script that a charge is being requested for, sure, there's Ethan's code in there, but if I'm not mistaken Schmooze must have purchased a huge amount of these licenses at extreme cost to themselves, this means lots of people can benefit from the system, and at some point in the dim future, Schmooze may possibly make a profit on it.

I dont have a problem with that.

 

[ErikU]

Taking your costs out for a minute... I would probably pay up to $500 for a small office system (say 3 ports).

I understand that this may not be doable considering your hard costs, but it is a honest answer to your question.

 

[wardmundy]

The short answer is that LumenVox is more than a little greedy in their pricing structure: double the price of either a Microsoft Windoze or Apple OS X license per seat. Get real. The only reason the product has taken off at all is because they've offered $50 licenses to anyone and everyone in the Asterisk community. That's about what a license is worth in the scheme of things. They're charging FIVE TIMES that much. So the only folks that buy them are companies that want to annoy the hell out of you by not ever answering your calls. I can count them on one hand: banks, cell phone companies, insurance companies when you want to file a claim, doctors' offices, customer "service" hotlines... You get the idea.

 

[phoneguy]

Ward

I will politely disagree with you on this issue. Lumenvox is about a 1/3 of what the other competitors are charging and they have to charge that kind of money for a product that is as rock solid as there product is. When the grammar files are created properly we are seeing a 98% plus match all the time. Now I wish it was cheaper but the bottom line is they have millions of dollars invested in this technology and they have to make a profit to. We have the Magic Button at a few of our customers as a Alpha Testers and I can tell you that not 1 of those customers will give up the Magic Button now that they have it. I could not rip it out of there system if I wanted to. They have said that it makes the operations of there phone system so much easier. Instead of pressing all these buttons and remembering extension numbers all they have to do is tell the phone what they want it to do and it does it.

 

[TheShniz]

Lumenvox is about a 1/3 of what the other competitors are charging

Let's clarify, they are charging 1/3 of what other manufacturers charge interconnects... I haven't a clue what those manufacturers are paying companies like Lumenvox (there's a few in the field) to use in their products, but given typical markups... I'd probably guess it's about the same.

Companies like Lumenvox, Nuance, etc create speech "engines" that are usable by companies such as Telekol, Active Voice, etc... It is the manufacturers that develop the applications to make them into a usable product. With OSS, we are in effect skipping the manufacturer (instead of the middleman) and each becoming a manufacturer in our own right. As such we now have the responsibility to develop said applications... the beauty of OSS, is that we all work in collaboration & the little guy wins

they have to charge that kind of money for a product that is as rock solid as there product is. When the grammar files are created properly we are seeing a 98% plus match all the time.

Just keep in mind they aren't the only player in the game... they're just the only player currently licensing for Asterisk, and I'm duly impressed with how well all the speech engines have progressed through the years.

 

[phoneguy]

Yes to many $250.00-$500.00 a port is really expensive. That is why we have decided to take the risk of buying all these ports and than selling them as a per month fee and oversubscribing them so everyone gets the best bang for there buck. That is also why we have built a complete applications because building speech applications is time consuming and not an easy project. If people do not feel they want these applications and are not willing to pay for a per month fee than we will be happy to just not offer the product and keep it for our own customer base.

We are taking a huge risk by buying the hundreds of license that we are being required by Lumenvox and in return they are building in some features to allow us to have a hosted model so that the masses can finally afford to buy and build speech applications. If people are not interested in this service please let us know now so we do not waste our money or time.

 

[wardmundy]

I hope it goes well for you guys so that I can come ride on your yacht. I guess I'm not overly optimistic because of the cost AND the learning curve. A button on a phone requires no memory by the end-user.

The Magic Button still requires that end-users remember the Magic Words... however simple they may be. We have both a Prius and an Escalade with a dedicated Magic Button and similar technology built in to do everything but shine your shoes. I love gadgets probably more than anybody on the planet. But I'd have to say that I rarely if ever have used either system to dial a number (dial 1234567), to change the temperature in the vehicle (cooler or warmer), much less to enter a destination for the GPS which is excruciatingly painful.

"Transfer call to Jim" works great with three people in the office. Not sure it's the same once you have to deal with a larger company with James Smith, Jamie Smythe, Jim Thomas, Jim Thompson, and James Earl Jones. Time will tell. Best of luck!!

 

[mchapman]

I'm interested!

Phoneguy,

I am VERY interested in this, and I would hate for you guys to cease with your current plans due to the input you have received from a limited amount of people. I believe that as time passes, you will see a LOT more interest from the community.

I have a contact with a government type that provides assistance to the blind that I would like to demo this to. I think that this application could conceivably open up some employment opportunities for people who have a vision impairment.

Thanks and please carry on!

Mike

 

[TheShniz]

I too hope you continue on making it available...

My only goal was to say that to some, $250/port is not a great deal at all; and, to lobby for an option of a one-time license (as opposed to perpetual, which also creates a dependency).

I would think the option would increase the target market, acceptance, & ultimately profitability for yourselves.

 

[phoneguy]

If we could figure out how to do a 1 time fee and still make money we would be all for it. About the only possible solution I can come up with at this time would be for people to buy there own ports from Lumenvox and than we would have to charge them a hefty fee for the Magic Button and other applications we have written since they are completely designed around being Dependant on our servers and can not run on a stock Lumenvox license. The real question is what are people willing to pay just for the application on a per system basis?

 

[phoneguy]

Ward

I completely agree with you. My newest car lets me control the GPS, Phone, Radio, and Comport Control with my voice but the commands are not natural so I do not use it. With the Magic button the commands are very natural and we have built it in a way so you can transfer a call with numerous different ways of saying it and they will all work.

The problem with most Asterisk systems is that if you can not give a user a specific button for each task they do not use the feature and most phones do not let you program enough buttons for every application like park, pick park, transfer to voicemail, intercom. How many people will use intercom if you have to dial *80 plus the extension versus saying transfer to John Smith.

The other cool feature in Asterisk are things like ring groups, page groups and Voicemail Blast Groups. The problem with these features is remembering all the different 3 or 4 digit numbers you have to dial to use them. At our office we have 8 different paging zones and I can not ever remember which zone is which number but I will be able to remember page warehouse, page front offices, page all, page production room, page provision room 1-4 and the sort. The same thing goes for voicemail blast groups. It is easy to remember Sales Blast Group or Support Blast Group or All Blast Groups.

All the above features are great everyday uses but they do not even scratch the surface of things like presence management. It is so nice to hit 1 button and say where is Ethan or where is Shaun and have it tell me they are at a meeting till 2 and would I like to be notified when they return or to change my status by telling the phone I am at a meeting until 2 and allow me to record a temporary message letting people know I am out of the office at a meeting. These are all real world applications that our Beta Customers have grown to love and could not live without.

 

[tomsyr]

What to the users want?

While I’ve been able to drive my company’s land based telco costs via Asterisk and negotiating LD, the reality is that we went from a handful of cell phones to over 30 Blackberry enabled phones. At about $100 per month, plus the Exchange CAL (recurring fee per device – ouch) it really comes down to what our users want. Having an affordable option - even if there’s a monthly cost, will be a pretty easy sell for a mid-sized business to pay.
I do have a couple of questions though – why is it capped at 50 extensions? Also – would you consider a trial for a business to get them hooked?
TomSyr